“非遗”档案：绍兴莲花

胡兆海与陈祥平：薪火相传Hu Zhaohai and Chen Xiangping: A Story of Inheritance

胡兆海，男，浙江绍兴人，国家级非物质文化遗产项目代表性传承人，代表项目为绍兴莲花落。现为浙江省绍兴莲花落艺术团团长，绍兴莲花落协会会长。1972年成为绍兴县曲艺团莲花落演员，1997年成立绍兴市地方曲艺学校。因唱《三根扁担》而救活了莲花落，成为家喻户晓的莲花落表演艺术家。

Hu Zhaohai, a native of Shaoxing, is a representative inheritor of national-level intangible cultural heritage. His representative item is Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art. Now he is the head of the Opera Troupe of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art, Zhejiang and the chairman of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art Association. In 1972, he became an artist of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art in the Shaoxing Traditional Music Philharmonic. In 1997, he established the Local Folk Art School, Shaoxing. Because of his superlative performance in The Three Shoulder Poles, he saved Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art and became a well-known performing artist.

陈祥平，女，绍兴曲艺界的“白牡丹”，为胡兆海老师的关门弟子、绍兴市文化馆曲艺干部、莲花落知名青年演员。作为绍兴莲花落中的“新星”，她凭借着自己出色的表演，斩获了多项曲艺界奖项。2015年，她更是以最高得分斩获了第五届浙江省曲艺新作会演“表演金奖”，这也是陈祥平这一年所获得的第二个金奖。

Chen Xiangping, the “White Peony” of the Shaoxing folk art circle, is the last disciple of Hu Zhaohai. Now she holds a position in the Shaoxing Cultural Center. As a new star, she has won a number of awards by virtue of excellent performance. In 2015, she won the championship in the Fifth Zhejiang Folk Festival—this is also the second championship for her this year.

薪火相传

口述：胡兆海、陈祥平 整理：徐雁南

坚持本心

其实莲花落的历史并不仅仅只有100年。100年前是嘉兴人唱的，当时是叫“跑街卖唱”。等到后来的搭台（即表演者上台唱戏），莲花落的历史才算开始，所以通常的说法是莲花落只有100年的历史。

绍兴的莲花落的特点就如你们所了解的那样，它和阳春白雪的平湖调有很大不同。我在“文革”之前和唱平湖调的郑关富是同一个曲艺班的，所以我知道。平湖调是属于文人阶级的曲艺，节奏慢，一唱三叹的，很多人都听不懂。在“文革”之前，它在民间其实是不如莲花落受欢迎的。相反，莲花落通俗易懂，节奏欢快。重要的是与其他四种绍兴曲艺相比，它更加受老百姓欢迎。

“文革”的时候，莲花落虽然被禁止，但是我们私下里依旧还是会表演。为什么呢？有老百姓保护我们。当时的确是没有办法，所以莲花落的表演就变成了个体意义上的表演了。个体在当时就是资本主义，是受限制的。但是好在当时老百姓会帮助我们，搜查的时候他们会帮我们躲开、帮我们逃出去。可见当时莲花落是多么受老百姓的喜爱。

可是也就是因为“文化大革命”，莲花落也损失了不少优秀的表演者。经历过“文革”的演出者，包括我，现在也只剩下几个人了。

“文革”之后，也像你们所了解的那样，我唱了《三根扁担》、《回娘家》。在1998年的时候，为了使莲花落得到更好的传承，我自己创办了这所绍兴地方曲艺学校，没有政府补贴。一会儿你们可以去参观一下那里的教室，过去我们就在那里授课。现在这个学校已经没有全日制教学了，也就是说我们这里现在全日制的学生已经不招了。这所学校现在的功能就是为这所学校的老生作短期培训。我的那批学生现在都在绍兴文化馆，经常会参加一些全国性的比赛。在参加比赛之前，他们就在这里进行短期培训，由我来给他们指导把关，帮他们排演。

去年呢，我五个学生去参加了浙江省里头的大赛，拿了四个金奖，一个银奖。今年，我们又排了一个新的莲花落，拿到浙江省里去比赛了，也拿了金奖。在这个比赛中，我们的莲花落曲目是和全部的曲艺种类比的。这些学生是我的骄傲。

我觉得绍兴莲花落照现在的这样继续发展传承下去，它的前景依旧是好的。因为观众们喜欢听它呀。而且我的学生们里有很多很优秀的有才华的，会对莲花落进行革新。绍兴方言唱的莲花落到现在依旧是十分有魅力的，而且观众也喜欢，所以现在我们该做的还是传承工作，把绍兴莲花落最原汁原味的感觉保留下来，让它发展得更好。

一阵新风

我是这里98届的学生，算起来从事莲花落演唱也十七八年了。我一开始是学越剧的，在小百花艺校里。然后当时胡老师来艺校里招生，我就被挑上了。说实话，我以前对莲花落了解也不深，但是在我师傅的教导和引领下，我便开始深入了解这一行。

学校里，因为乐器有助于学员乐理、乐感以及创作水平的提升，而且曲艺对弹唱的要求都很高，所以每个人都得学会使用乐器。我记得当初一拿起那些乐器的时候，我觉得它们都十分枯燥。当时自身也没有基础，又要弹又要唱的，要起步真的困难很多。我是把这两者分解，先学弹或先学唱，然后再把这两者结合才渐渐练了起来。学会了，就乐在其中了。

兴趣是一回事，本事又是另外一回事——你有兴趣并不代表着你就能唱好。关键还是要下功夫。所以，当时的学生现在还在唱莲花落的其实也不多了。所以我觉得我们现在依旧从事这一行的人真的非常了不起，非常团结。现在他们都有自己的演出。

我们胡老师以前也收过外国人，他就特别喜欢用这样的方式来发展我们莲花落。至于方言问题，我们一般就会先告诉他这是什么意思，然后就好教了。其实这跟学员的语言能力也有很大的关系。

在学校的时候就像在一个大家庭里一样。我记得当初吃午饭的时候，大家并不像一般学校吃食堂的那样坐着，而是围成一个大圆桌一起坐着吃，有说有笑的，真的非常温暖。饭菜也是我师娘亲自弄的，所以在学校学习的那段时间非常有家的感觉。

我现在也有很多的学生，他们在“传承班”里学习——我们文化馆现在创建了两个班，一个是供小孩子学习的，还有一个就是成人班。成人班里有三十多个人，他们大多都是业余的，但也有一些现在在舞台上比较活跃的表演者。

对你提到的绍兴莲花落方言特点和创新的问题，我的看法是，本身你说绍兴莲花落，如果不用绍兴方言唱的话就会失去了它原来的那种感觉，我知道现如今方言是一个问题，但事实就是如此。我们不能改变它的核心。所以在创新上我的个人的看法是，从音乐上进行改革。我们现在的莲花落——像我自己也在创作一些莲花落曲目——就加入了许多时尚元素。像我们现在给出的贺岁片当中，莲花落基本的乐器当中也会出现一些现代乐因素，像电子乐啊，大提琴啊，小提琴啊，都会穿插进去。但不管怎样，莲花落是不能脱离它的一些基本的东西的。莲花落是有它的基本主线的，你如果岔得太远的话，就会离题，那还谈何传承呢？

作曲需要多长时间？这要看你要写的是长篇还是短篇啦。我一般会花两天左右的时间把东西弄出来。

灵感从哪来？厕所（笑）。我是真的很搞笑的。一般我的作曲就是比较热闹点的，喜庆点的，通常都会放到过年的贺岁片里。作曲的时候，我就躲在厕所里，把门一反锁——一般写贺岁篇的时候不是冬天吗？我就把浴霸打开，坐在厕所里想啊想啊想，然后“唰”，灵感就来了。有些人在创作的时候会抽烟，有些人在创作的时候还要剪指甲。各有各的灵感获取方式嘛（笑）。

展现莲花落有许多种方式，比如说，我现在在为我们绍兴某品牌的酒做广告，在广告里我就用莲花落唱，当地老百姓们都很喜欢。

对绍兴人来说，当地的曲艺演员比任何当红明星都好。他们喜欢本土的，原汁原味的。如果你请到了绍兴曲艺界中的大牌，那你招待的一定是最高规格的贵客了。我们绍兴就有这样一个习惯。

我觉得自己现在还是个小辈，所以对我们莲花落的发展，我想说的还是，把它传承下去是最重要的。我们还需要学习很多的知识，因为跟老一辈的人比起来，我们知道的还是太少了。我觉得在未来，还会有更多的新一代会接上来。希望还是很多的。

另外，不仅仅是人才，足够的观众也是极为重要的因素。有人来看来欣赏你的作品了，这门艺术才不会倒。

所以，我们需要培养更多的传承人，创作更多大家喜欢的作品。

A Story of Inheritance

Narrators: Hu Zhaohai, Chen Xiangping Compiled by: Xu Yannan

Following My Heart

Actually, the history of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art is more than one hundred years old. One hundred years ago, it was performed by the Jiaxing locals. That was called “a busker singing on the street.” As time went by, when people began to perform Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art on the stage, the history of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art began. So people usually say that Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art only has existed for 100 years.

It is well known that the character of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art is totally different from Pinghudiao. Before the “Cultural Revolution”, I was a classmate of Zhen Guanfu (he is an artist of Pinghudiao), so I know it. Pinghudiao is a kind of highbrow art, which has a slow rhythm. “One word, three sighs,” so many people actually don't truly understand it, let alone like it. On the contrary, Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art is easier to understand, and it has a lively rhythm. More importantly, compared to the other four folk arts of Shaoxing, Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art is more popular.

Although it was banned during The “Cultural Revolution”, we still performed it secretly. Why? The people protected us—the Red Guards would catch you if you performed it in public. Luckily, folks helped us when the Red Guards came to catch us. See? At that time, people still loved Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art.

During the period of the “Cultural Revolution”, Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art lost many outstanding performers. Nowadays, only a few artists are still alive.

After the“Cultural Revolution”,I performed The Three Shoulder Poles and Back to Home,and they succeeded.In 1998,I established the Local Folk Art School without government grants. You can visit the classrooms right there. In the past, we had classes there. Well, I have to tell you, we don't have full-time classes now. The function of this school now is just short-term training—most of my students are working in the Shaoxing Cultural Center now, so they have many opportunities to take part in nationwide competitions. Before the competitions, they will come here to have some training. Of course, I will give them some advice then.

Last year, five students of mine took part in the competition that was held by our province. Four gold awards, one silver. This year, another gold award again. I'm proud of them.

In my eyes, I think Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art still has a bright future—it'll just keep going because the audience likes it. Despite that, my students can devote themselves to its innovation. All in all, what we most urgently need now is inheritance. We should save the most original style of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art, follow our hearts, and make a better future for it.

Innovation always Counts

I have been working in this field since 1998. Yes, eighteen years already. At first, actually, I learned Shaoxing Opera in the Xiaobaihua Art School. I was chosen by my master. To be honest, I had no idea about Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art at first. Thanks to my master's gentle guidance, I have this lovely job.

In our school, everybody was required to learn to play musical instruments, music theory, and the composition of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art. At first, it was really boring when I began playing the instrument because I had no idea of its ABCs, and the combination of playing and singing was very difficult. So I tried to divide them into steps to learn—first I learned playing, second I learned singing, and at last I mixed them together. All in all, I made it.

It's one thing to have the interest; it's another thing to have the ability. You cannot make it if you only have the interest. The most important point is the endeavor. Finally, only a few people stayed. I think they are very great. They are a unity.

In the past, actually, we had foreigner learners—the master enjoyed promoting Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art. He thinks it's great to inherit Lianhualao. As for the problem of the different dialects, our solution was to tell them the meaning of the script first; then every problem was counteracted. By the way, verbal skill is an eternal key, too.

My school life was very happy. I stayed there just like I stayed with my family. I remember that lunch was made by my master's wife. And when the lunch time came, we sat and ate together, laughing and talking happily, really. School was my second home at that time.

Now I have many students. They are studying in the inheritance class. We have two classes right now: One is for the children, the other is for the adults. We have thirty adults now, but most of them are amateurs. Of course, some of them are performers who are popular with the audience on stage.

As for the innovation of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art, my opinion is, if you do not use the dialects, Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art will lose its original style. I know that using the dialects is a problem. It is not so easy to understand for some people, but it's a fact. We cannot change the core. So if you wanted to change something, you'd better focus on the music. Like me, I'm composing some new scripts now. And I'm trying to add some fashionable style in my works. Some non-Chinese musical instruments will be used in my works such as electrical-music, cello, and violin. But anyway, the core is unchangeable.

How long does it take to compose a piece of music? It depends on the length of my works I think. I often finish a piece within two days.

Where does the inspiration come from? The bathroom. Ha ha, funny, right? The style of my works is always festive and hilarious. I often lock myself in the bathroom when I begin to compose. I turn on the bath heater and then sit down, think it over. Blink! Here it comes! Different people have different ways. Someone likes smoking while composing. Someone likes manicuring. Ha ha.

There are also many ways to show Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art to the people nowadays. For example, advertising. I have used Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art to advertise Shaoxing yellow rice wine, and it was well received.

To the local people of Shaoxing, a folk music artist is better than a superstar. They are popular among the locals. If you invited the best folk music artist of Shaoxing, then your guest would be the most distinguished one.

I think I still need to improve myself now. And to the development of the art, what I want to say is, inherit it. We still need to learn from our predecessors because the knowledge we have is far from what is required. Our future is bright, for we have many inheritors now.

Besides, the audience is also important. Any category of art would be extinct if it has no audience.

As a result, we must cultivate as many talented successors as we can and produce more pieces that appeal to the people.

当莲花开遍绍兴城——访胡兆海、陈祥平有感

文：徐雁南 指导教师：张振梅

7月初的绍兴城，虽不炎热，但却被雨幕笼罩。早晨8点，我与其他两位用声音叙事绍兴调研团的成员一起搭出租车前往位于大禹陵景区附近的绍兴地方曲艺学校。我们要采访的对象是著名绍兴莲花落传承人胡兆海老师。

虽然下着雨，但是出租车司机师傅十分的热心。在得知我们是来研究绍兴地方曲艺的学生之后，他便兴致勃勃地和我们介绍起了绍兴地方五大曲种以及他对绍兴曲艺的看法。

“那是我们全绍兴人的骄傲啊！”最后他说。

地方有些僻静，但是司机师傅还是将我们送到了学校大门口，并微笑着预祝我们采访顺利。真是个愉快而又短暂的旅途！

我们在雨中眼望着整个学校的景观。从造型外观看，绍兴地方曲艺学校是一座带有古代气息的建筑群。红漆的大门、铜质的门环、扬起的屋檐以及远处青葱的群山一起构成了一幅美丽的画面。

接到电话后，胡兆海老师微笑着亲自开门热情迎接了我们。与照片上西装革履的他不同，那天的胡兆海老师衣着朴素，却依旧显得精神矍铄。想必在日常生活中的胡老师一定是个低调和蔼之人吧。

采访地点设在学校北部的一个表演厅当中。偌大的表演厅正中是一个宽敞的舞台，台下则设有桌椅。众人落座后，访谈便开始了。

胡老师和我们谈了一些关于这所学校的事情，同时也和我们分享了一些绍兴莲花落在“文革”时期的故事。在谈到“文革”时期的那段历史的时候，胡兆海老师提到，如果没有当时老百姓私下里的保护，绍兴莲花落就没有今天。讲到这里的时候，胡老师的眼里流露出了一丝骄傲，当然，也有感动。

试想，在那个疯狂的年代，老百姓是凭着怎样的一种决心、一种热爱将莲花落保护起来的？

一种曲艺，倘若没有了观众群，无论如何都是无法长期存活下去的。但就是因为绍兴莲花落那种独特的、经久不衰的魅力，使得这一艺术形式历经风雨，走到今天。

而更令胡老师骄傲的，其实是他的学生们。他告诉我们现如今他的学生们在全国比赛中战绩辉煌，说这话的时候，他的眼睛里满满的都是为人师的骄傲。

整个访谈过程中，胡老师耐心地回答了我们的问题，虽然他言辞简洁，但是他的每个答案都能带给我们一些启发。从他的回答里，我能看得出他对自己事业的热爱和热忱。

从胡老师的《三根扁担》和《回娘家》到今天胡老师的桃李满天下，也就不过几十年的时间。而胡老师告诉我们，他接触莲花落至今已有五十年了。同时我们得知，这所曲艺学校是他自己一手亲自创办起来的，为的是培养绍兴地方曲艺人才。听到这里，我们不禁对胡老师肃然起敬。在没有政府资金支持的情况下，胡老师用自己的力量创办了这所学校并且亲自去挑选学员。我想，只有对莲花落那种发自心底的热爱才能成为发展它、推动它的动力，而胡老师做到了这一点。

让我们惊喜的是，胡老师还为我们介绍了他的一位得意门生——“白牡丹”陈祥平。陈祥平老师是胡老师的关门弟子之一，已经在全省以及全国的曲艺大赛中获得了不少辉煌战绩。今天她的到来让我们感到十分惊喜与激动。

访谈仍旧在继续。作为一名莲花落青年表演艺术家，陈老师向我们介绍了当今绍兴莲花落所做的一些革新，同时也和我们分享了一些她创作生活中的趣事。另外，她也动情地回忆了当年胡老师对她的伯乐之恩和在曲艺学校里的温暖时光。长达一个多小时的访谈进行得十分愉快。

通过这一个上午的访谈，在这对师徒之间，我看见了绍兴莲花落的一种传承。过去，师傅负责打天下、奠根基；现在，徒弟则担当起了传承创新的职责。师徒共同活跃在绍兴曲艺这个大舞台上，收获的不仅仅是来自老百姓的鲜花与掌声，更是人生的一个回报——这个回报来源于付出，当你真正热爱一个事业的时候，你会为之付出汗水、泪水与力量。他们做到了，用自己的行动。

“我们要学的还有很多。”陈祥平老师如是说。

可是我们依旧要感谢你们，传承人们。曲艺是一门动人的艺术，你们用你们的汗水与心将这艺术殿堂搭建，这足以让所有人向你们致敬！

When the Lotus Art Blooms—A Visit to Hu Zhaohai and Chen Xiangping

By Xu Yannan Supervised by Zhang Zhenmei

In July, Shaoxing City was not hot but covered by a rain curtain. Eight in the morning, we started our journey to the Local Folk Art School by taxi. This day, our interviewee was Mr. Hu Zhaohai, the famous inheritor of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art.

The taxi driver was very warm hearted. When he knew our destination, he showed great interest and began to talk about the Five Folk Arts of Shaoxing.

“That's the pride of our Shaoxing!” He said.

The destination was a little out of the way, but the taxi driver finally found it. He wished us beforehand on our interview with a smile and then left. What a short but happy journey.

We looked up at the school in the rain. It was an architectural complex featuring the Chinese classical style: red painted door, brass knocker, a beautiful cornice and bright green wood. Just like a picture.

Mr. Hu welcomed us with a warm smile. Differently from his photo, he was simply dressed but still looked hale and hearty. He must be a low key and kind person.

Our talk was set in a performance hall on the north of the school. The center of the hall was a stage surrounded with tables and chairs. Our interview began there.

We talked about the school. Then Mr. Hu shared some stories about Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art during the “Cultural Revolution”. Mr. Hu emphasized that Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art would not exist today without the help of the local people. Mr. Hu told the stories of the past with a proud and moving expression.

Let's imagine, in those crazy days, what made folks protect Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art? Without the audience, a piece of folk art would not survive. But just because of its unique and everlasting charm, Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art finally overcame the difficulties and is kept to today.

But in Mr. Hu's eyes, his students are what he is most proud of. He showed us his students' achievements with a teacher's pride.

For the entire interview, he answered every question patiently. Although in simple words, every answer he gave brought us some inspiration. From his answers, I could see his passion and zeal for his career.

His performance in The Three Shoulder Poles and Back to Home to was only a story several years ago. But he told us that it has been fifty years since he began to perform Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art. This school was founded by himself to cultivate talented successors. We respected him more at that news. Without any government funds, he founded this school and selected students, just for the preservation of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art. I think, only this deepest love for Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art can become the source of its development, and Mr. Hu did it.

To our amazement, Mr. Hu introduced one of his excellent students to us, the“White Peony,” Chen Xiangping. She has won many awards in the competitions of our province and also in China.

As a young performer of Shaoxing Lotus Flower Art, Miss Chen introduced us to some new innovations of Lianhua and some interesting things in her creative career.She also recalled her school life with emotion. The inspiring interview lasted for one hour.

After this interview, I can see the inheritance between them. In the past, the teacher struggled and took root; now, the students take up the banner of inheritance. They perform on the stage together, and what they gain is not just flowers and applause, but also the reward of their lives. When you are passionate for a certain job, you are willing to make sacrifices. They did that with their actions.

“There are still many things waiting for us to learn,” Miss Chen added.

But we still want to thank you, the inheritors. Folk art is a touching art. You have built a splendid palace of art with your sweat, your heart. I just want to thank you!